Friends, Family & Carers Forum

[Janna]

Apple,

I have engaged in lengthy discussions with my son and tried to explain how some of his behaviour is disrespectful and hurtful.  I hope he takes some of what I say on board but it's very hard to tell because he is a very poor commuicator and generally does not talk unless asked a specific question.  He is VERY difficult to connect with and appears highly irritated by my very presence at times, let alone when I open discussion up with him.  In my last chat I did explain that there were certain behaviours which I don't like, but reassured him that I still love him as a whole person.  I used our cat as analogy and said I don't like it when the cat scratches me because it's nasty and hurts, but that doesn't mean that I don't love the cat, I just don't like it when he does that.  I hope that made some sense to him.

I have tried to engage in activities with him, but he shuns every single thing I suggest and basically does not want to spend 1 minute more with me than what he has to.  He prefers being solitary.  He won't even sit at the table and eat a meal with me, his sister or grandmother and I find myself providing him with room serviced.  I've explained that it would be really nice to have his company for a meal - even not every day but at least a couple of times a week but he simply shrugs this away.  I try to entice him to get up and go out by suggesting anything and everything I know he likes e.g. how about we go and get some McDonalds.  That doesn't work either. He has BIG issues and communication is one of them - that doesn't serve him well anywhere. would describe his disposition as generally quite hostile, defiant and withdrawn.

I'm all out of strategies for now and just hope that time will see an improvemet.  I'm also thinking that it may be time for a medication review and possibly another inpatient stay.

Thanks ever so much for your reply.

Jann x

[Appleblossom]

It sounds like you are in for a long haul. It is hard for them to develop good sense of manhood without good modelling and family attachments. Protect yourself so that you can last the distance. Dont take his stuff personally ..my son was a bit the same .. very prickly about my presence and definitely no touching.  I was wary about going to his end of the house and just did it to cook ... I managed to keep him at the table and discouraged eating in his room .... one of the disadvantages of laptops is that they can hole up indefinitely.

You havent mentioned his computer use .. is he sleeping or does he spend time online.

My son was the most hostile to me when he was the same age as your son, but it has eased off over time, as they do get a bit more mature and can see the limits that even parent have to deal with.

We also bonded a bit over his favourite movies, which meant that it wasnt "talk" focussed.

The cat analogy is good .... I used our 2 cats, their relationships with each other and their relatiionships with him and I to demonstrate many things over the years including personality and group dynamics. 

Just trying to keep hope up .. and share ...

[Janna]

Thanks Apple.  It is certainly helping to restore some hope after reading what you've written.

Oh, I forgot to mention that touch is also taboo.  In fact me touching his back and trying to console him when he was saying he wanted to end it all was the precursor that led to him punching me.  Funny how afterward I felt like I had deserved that punch for not giving him space at a time when he wanted it.  It's hard to give space to someone who's just indicated that they don't want to live anymore!!

His computer use is right up there.  He definitely doesn't just sleep.  I've often wanted to remove it from him but can't bring myself to do that because it is the only thing in his life that brings him some joy and happiness. It's a double edged sword really.  If he didn't have it I am sure boredom would have driven him out of his room, but given that he is endlessly entertained via it there is no incentive to do anything else.  

He does still sleep alot despite this and on those days when he has attended school he literlly walks in the door and goes straight to bed and will sleep for 3-4 hours.  Eve when he was an inpatient and had a healthy sleep/wake cycle, he still napped frequently.  Could be a side effect from the meds?

I'm fortunate right now to be working part-time in a job that allows flexibiity.  There are days, such as Monday week ago where I simply couldn't go when he was in crisis.  Makes me wonder how things would be if circumstances were different and I had to work full-time.  His depression is more than a full-time job.

This evening he's in an OK mood and has indicated that he's going to try to get to school tomorrow.  I've heard that so many times that I'm not going to get my hopes up.  Mornings are always a totally different story.

Thanks again for your encouragment and for providing me with some hope.  It's very needed.

Janna x

[Janna]

Thanks Apple.  It is certainly helping to restore some hope after reading what you've written.

Oh, I forgot to mention that touch is also taboo.  In fact me touching his back and trying to console him when he was saying he wanted to end it all was the precursor that led to him punching me.  Funny how afterward I felt like I had deserved that punch for not giving him space at a time when he wanted it.  It's hard to give space to someone who's just indicated that they don't want to live anymore!!

His computer use is right up there.  He definitely doesn't just sleep.  I've often wanted to remove it from him but can't bring myself to do that because it is the only thing in his life that brings him some joy and happiness. It's a double edged sword really.  If he didn't have it I am sure boredom would have driven him out of his room, but given that he is endlessly entertained via it there is no incentive to do anything else.  

He does still sleep alot despite this and on those days when he has attended school he literlly walks in the door and goes straight to bed and will sleep for 3-4 hours.  Even when he was an inpatient and had a healthy sleep/wake cycle, he still napped frequently.  Could be a side effect from the meds?

I'm fortunate right now to be working part-time in a job that allows flexibiity.  There are days, such as Monday week ago where I simply couldn't go when he was in crisis.  Makes me wonder how things would be if circumstances were different and I had to work full-time.  His depression is more than a full-time job.

This evening he's in an OK mood and has indicated that he's going to try to get to school tomorrow.  I've heard that so many times that I'm not going to get my hopes up.  Mornings are always a totally different story.  Nevertheless I do hope and just can't wait for him to show some sign of improvement.

Thanks again for your encouragment and for providing me with some hope.  It's very needed.

Janna x

[Appleblossom]

I felt similarly to you about limiting access to computers.  There was a period when I was using access to them, to try to encourage my son into going to school but he proved to me that he could go without computers and go without school.

Eventually it felt wrong and caused too much strain and conflict in the family. I am still concerned about the computer use but he did go through a maturing process in what he actually accessed and how much time he spent on it. My son is an adult now and he really does have to self manage.

I started a thread here about computer addictions but not many people took it seriously.

Yes it used to be that natural instinct of hunger would drive them to the dinner table and boredom out of the bedroom and into action.

The only other thought I can contribute is to ask how is he going with his sister .. is he decent to her and she to him? Not tot ake from her success but sometimes there are polarisations within the family ...

[Janna]

Apple,

When my son first started exhibiting "off" behaviour and not attending school the first thing my ex-H said was that he had a computer internet addiction.  He placed a lot of emphasis on this claiming that he had read so much in the news about it and that all my son's behaviour fitted with what he had read.  My ex is a medico btw.  Our initial reaction was to police and limit his internet usage, which I attempted to do with little succees.  My son has also had the computer removed and appeared to survive quite well without it.  To this day this computer addiction thing has always lurked in my mind as being somehow related (or is it?).  Even now I suspect that he may not be telling the truth and waking up in the wee hours of the night to use the computer.  I've honestly wanted to get a surveillance camera in his room just to see if he really does sleep the whole night through or if he's lying and up there on his computer.

My son has a non-relationship with his sister and they barely utter a word to each other.  My daughter has no time for him.  My son dislikes her because she was often mean and bullying to him when they were younger..  Its all a very sad start of affairs.

Janna x

[Appleblossom]

I did not mean to pry or state the obvious.

When it was clear my son did not want to be touched I respected his space .. a major move out of hostility to me was a deliberate crossing of the room and surprise giving me a peck on the cheek when in the mental health unit.

My ex worked in IT and bonded with my son during access when he was 10 by staying up all night playing on computer.

A couple of years ago my son admitted that he started deliberately staying up at night so that he could avoid school and me during the day.  My step-daughter taught him to cover the inside of his door so that no light could be seen shining underneath. I monitored it for a while .. but could not maintain 24/7 watch and policing so had to allow it and hope that his drive to get a life would help sort things out.

I was not impressed when the father said to my son's treating doctor 18 months ago.. you'll be seeing more people with computer addictions ...snigger snigger .. he hasnt taken son's psych situation seriously.

My daughters (one full and half sister) and son have limited relationships, superficially polite. Both the girls were arranging their upcoming overseas trips and chatting about that when visitng him in hospital when he had a serious psychotic break, but dont really get on with each other. They were a little condescending but we all played monopoly together at his request. The youngest trying to bring a broken family together, while himself very unwell.  I will always love him for it.

Having a medical degree, or degree of any kind, is no guarantee of having ethics within the family or parenting skills.

I think some of these discussions are good for other readers and the younger moderators too ..and help put various things re "professionals" and family in perspective.

[Janna]

You've raised some good points Apple.  One of the reasons my son became so obsessed with his computer was because he really didn't have an alternative.  His father was absent, his sister was never there for him, he had no other siblings, we don't have extended family (e.g. cousins or the like) and he never had any close friends that he could spend time with.  He had friends, but geographics or social situations, prevented them being there most of the time.  There were no neighbourhood friends to kick a ball with or do anything.  I'm not the least suprised that his life was fulfilled via a computer. I would do the same.

Even now that he's depressed, that computer still fulfills his needs in so many ways.  He's not just stuck addictively on one game or the like.  He does everything, including skyping with his friends which is nice because it gives him social contact, even though it's not physical.

We have therapy later this afternoon.  My son won't go into therapy without me.  I'm like his voice because of his poor communication skills.  His therapist was away last week when things escalated, so we'll have a lot of ground to cover.  I asked my son to use his free time and write down three things which he thought were solutions.  His number one choice was to be readmitted into the mental health unit, which is good and not.  It's good that he still wants help and that he identifies that he can't do it alone, but not so good that he chose that over implementing some self-help strategies, or listening to my suggestions, or taking heed of his therapists advice.  

I'm not too sure where to from here.  And by the way .... he didn't attend school again today despite saying that he was yesterday.  He couldn't wake up!!!

Janna x

[Appleblossom]

I was allergic to the computer so it is actually good that I am getting computer interests and can "relate" to the fulfilling aspect or addictiveness of it. It makes our relationship less oppositional.

My son very occasionally would go into a mute phase and I would speak for him .. nothing to do with MHU .. just between us.

I also at times refuse to speak for my children and Let the emptiness in the air to encourage them to find their own language and communication style .. even if it is not great .. I would think at 16 it is better that he stops relying on you to be a mouthpiece. I would only do that if he is quite psycotic .. but you do what think is needed... just sharing ...

The teacher in me is always setting little tasks .. I am wary of learned helplessness ... and my son has made himself more helpless than I and my siblings were .. and that is retro in a bad way.

MY son had speech pathologist assessment for aspergers .. low capacity social language when he was 13 ... yet if same people saw him now they would be surprised .. he can talk to academics very well ...its weird ..

Just 5 minutes ago .. I put a little boundary on son .. he called me and wanted to me pick him up from airport 25 mins away .. I had already paid for his bus ticket to shuttle him into town and he was going to do stuff and not be home til tomorrow ... but he was saying he couldnt manage it etc I am have trouble driving on freeway ... I help firm and refused to rush out ... he had to approach v arious people in airport and sort things out ..I sympathised with his tiredness and compromised .. but "made" him do a bit of the work .. so now I only have 5 min drive .. I am also sick of waste and they get too casual about it.  So he wont have to go to rehearsal after big interstate trip .. but did have to perservere through some uncomfortable feelings and manage things.

He said ..."Oh its nothing for you to get in car and get me" ... anyway .. that is how I get my son to articulate his needs to both me and others .. I listened on phone as he spoke to 3 people and it was all sorted ... and now my son knows he can manage some airport issues, even if he feels he cant.

[Janna]

I've had a horrid afternoon/evening.  

 My son and I went to therapy. I stuffed up by not checking the time. Every week the appointment is at 4pm, but today happens to be one of those times where the appointment was at 5pm. The therapist came out and explained and we agreed to come back in 1 hour. No big deal. We live only a 7 minute walk away.

As soon as we left I said “So we’ll just go home, chill for a while and then come back” to which my son responded “I’m not coming back”. After questioning him repeatedly about this the only reason he could come up with is “I couldn’t be bothered”. We continued to engage in conversation on our walk home. I asked him to consider that he was reacting emotionally and not rationally - his reply “I don’t care”. After attempting to talk him through this he then swung it all around and said “You’re really starting to annoy me now” and then followed this up with telling me that “he doesn’t really love me”. Rightly or wrongly I responded to this by saying “Well you don’t love your father, now you don’t love your mother, where to from here?”. His response “I don’t know and I don’t care”.

He then walked off away from me but as the walk continued he re-engaged with me. Then the venom came out. I said “You know this is all because of the mix -up with the appointment and it’s so unnecessary”. His reply “I don't care. You’re annoying me. Leave me alone”. This triggered me. My son has just told me that he doesn’t love me and finds my company unbearable.

We returned home to find and his grandmother tidying his room and straightening his bed. We entered his room and I said “Stop doing what you’re doing. He doesn’t appreciate it anyway”. She ignored this and continued. Then all of a sudden my son left the house and his parting words were “I’m out of here. Maybe this is the time to end it” and with that slammed the front door shut as he left. A few minutes later I went out to see where he was - looked up and down the street and then saw him sitting on the ground around the side of our house. I asked him to come in and his reply was “Just leave me alone”. I asked what he was doing and why ad he replied “Cooling off. Just leave me alone”. I then said “Fine I’ll go if that makes you happy and makes you feel like you’re in control”. He agreed and said “Yes I feel good. Just go”.

I let him "cool off" and at 10 minutes to the 5pm appointment went back out and asked him to recondiser.  The answer was a flat "No", but he did concede to go back into the house.  I went to his therapy session and had a good parent session in which I could offload all my grievances.  When I returned he was sleeping, and he still is as I type this.

His therpist has tried to call him, but he is not answering his phone.  He is his own worst enemy to be honest.  

I'm emotionally exhausted.  I have been instructed by his therapist to just take "time out".  Forget going to school and just drop everything for a week or so, so that I can regroup and recover.

This is so challenging and I'm so confused.  Depression mixed with teenager is not a good mix.

Janna x