Schizophrenia and responsibilties for action TW

[RublesTime]

TW: child abuse

Hi guys.

I know this is a pretty uncomfortable discussion to have here, but how liable are people with schizoaffective disorder for their actions, and how much should they be made to face the things that they have done?

When I was growing up, my schizophrenic mother had frequent episodes, and even as they became physical the line that was always used was "she can't help it". And I took that on board at the time, but now I wonder if that's entirely accurate, as it always felt like whenever she did something wrong she never had to apologise for what she had done, even if it was during a moment lacking clarity. Her behaviour would become more and more childish as I got older too.

Fast forward to a fair few years later, my wife has a schizoeffective father. Her upbringing with him was objectively worse, as he would be more physical and neglectful during her upbringing, and more crucially during her very young years (my mother got worse when I was into my tweens, so I at least had some decent periods of normality before that). She is extremely resentful of the things that he did during her young childhood, including things like forcing her to go out for dinner and not allowing her to change her soiled clothes (she had wet herself at school), shoving her downstairs for walking too slowly on multiple occasions, and one incident where he made a sibling leave home permanently before they were 16. And when I say made them leave home, I mean he actively told them not to be home when they got back, and mother had to find her a new place to stay.

As someone who grew up with a schizophrenic mother, I know how hard it effects one's life and how even in my 30s I'm still feeling its effects downstream. But I think in comparison I dealt okay with those trials when I put it against how my wife has dealt with it. She was never able to fully compartmentalise the things that were done to her. And it really made me think very hard about how much one who is mentally ill is responsible for their actions, particularly in the case of schizoeffective people. 

The problem I'm really having with this time is he just spent a couple of months in and out of hospital for medication changes, during which he said some utterly reprehensible things about everyone in the family. And the thing that is really bothering me is now, much like he always has handled things, he's trying to act like the things didn't happen, and whenever they're brought up he just acts suprised and says he didn't know he did that. Not even followed up with a sorry, sometimes accompanied with a sheepish grin. And while I can sorta separate the disorder from the person, even I'm infuriated by this behaviour as it feels like he would prefer pretend things haven't happened than face them and apologise.

All I'm asking is for him to take some responsibility for his actions. Is this unreasonable? Am I being unfair? Should people with schizoaffective disorder be made to acknowledge their actions during episodes? 

I'm sorry if this feels rude or nasty. I've been living with this literally my whole life and how much it deeply affects my wife really gets to me. I kinda want her to be able to get over it and live life but also understand why she wants it to stop. Even now in our 30s he still talks to her like a lazy teenager.

Thanks for you time.

[Appleblossom]

Hello @RublesTime 

I cannot make a long reply but wanted to acknowledge your post.

With both of you having a parent with severe mental health conditions, it probably would take a lot of counselling or other emotional work to untangle it or be clear with regards to responsibilities.

Hearing you have empathy, but it may not always be best to downplay your own experience.  It is a big load for you both. 

You can make your requests of her father, but not control his responses.  The same with your partner, and you would have a lot to cope with your own mother.

I have found putting their story in perspective helps to not take all issues so personally, but still if it is family and long term it is personal and bound to effect you. Work on your values and relationship.

Good Luck it is not an easy road.  I had 2 parents with diagnoses.

You were not nasty or rude.

Take Care

[Former-Member]

Hey @RublesTime. I'm TuxedoCat, one of the peer support workers here on the forums. Welcome to our community, I hope you can find some support here to help work through all of this ❤️

I just want to acknowledge the hurt that you and your wife have experienced over your life, especially when you were children. It's not rude or nasty because no matter the cause, it still hurt and has those ongoing impacts you spoke about. It might feel uncomfortable, but it's totally understandable that you're working through these thoughts and feelings. I hope we can support you through working through these things, especially these experiences of the last few months. Also, do you or your wife have professional supports to help recover and work through this trauma?

While I don't have experiences with schizophrenia or know much about holding people accountable, I can see parts of my own story here. And if it's ok, I might share some of my own experiences, but please take what works for you and leave the rest. While my experiences differ a little from yours, I have been really angry at my dad for how he parented me and my siblings. He's said and done things over my life which has left this massive gap between us which started to develop from when I was about 9. 

When I was working with my therapist on this, she helped me realise that it was completely reasonable for me to want him to apologise. But she asked me whether I could control that and whether I'd be satisfied with his apology. At the time, I was gobsmacked. But I realised his apology wouldn't actually help me. Letting go of that helped me in starting my recovery because I was no longer relying on him to give me something to start that process. Instead, I gained back that power. Again, if my experience doesn't feel useful to you, feel free to disregard it.

What do you think about all of this?

Again, I'm so sorry that this has happened. It's so unfair.

Biggest of hugs,

TuxedoCat

PS a good tip to share is that when responding to someone, you can tag them my pressing @ and typing their name. Like @RublesTime 

[Former-Member]

Just wanted to pop in and say thank yo so much for sharing @Appleblossom. 

I was searching for shame and vulnerability to send to another forumite this evening. I can across your beautiful post and thread from waaayyyyyyyy 2015. Would you mind if I shared it here? I think RublesTime might find it valuable to read?

[RublesTime]

@Former-Member 

There are supports, but they feel very much about making things comfortable for him. Which is great, I'm glad he's able to get support, and they're trying to get my wife involved with the discussion but it's not happening yet. We're not alone as such, but father in law also brought COVID home with him from the hospital, so we're currently trying to keep that under control and failing with a small child... He also is very good at convincing mental health professionals that he's well and then will go off and send nasty messages to his family about imagined things that they've done... 

Regarding your therapists advice, my own therapist has previously put this concept to me about other things. I understand the principle about how it may or may not help, and honestly it would help me a little but I very much doubt my wife gives a hoot about an apology this late in. This has been going on her whole life, so I understand that. She basically wants him to go away but it's not going to happen. I get a bit frustrated at how rigid her thinking is about the situation but also am fairly understanding of how she feels and why. I guess this is why I started thinking so heavily about people being held responsible for their actions.

When I was young I saw my mum become more and more like a kid every year, and it felt like it was at least in part because whenever she did something wrong she would basically be put in the "she doesn't understand what she's done" basket, which felt like the perfect recipe for someone reverting to a kid if you get my drift. There's a lot of discussion about treating mentally ill people with respect, and in that regard the approach feels reductive. I am probably WAY oversimplifying it, but it's also something I never see discussed in any fashion and I really needed a place to discuss it as I think it's a subject that people don't want to talk about due to how morally complicated the discussion is, especially on a place like the internet where it's really easy to misconstrue intent. 

[Gwynn]

I don’t know if you’re familiar with Pat Deegan, but she writes about responsibility and schizophrenia here: https://www.commongroundprogram.com/blog/mental-illness-made-me-do-it

[RublesTime]

@Gwynn Thank you. That is genuinely helpful and the sort of content that I'm wanting. Appreciate it.

[Former-Member]

That is so powerful @Gwynn, thank you for sharing it ❤️ 

@RublesTime what you've said makes complete sense. Again, I just wanna say that happened/is happening to you and your wife is so unfair and wanting an apology and for him to held accountable is completely justified.

From the article, this part in particular really rings true for me 

To make an amend is to attempt to right the wrong I have done. To make an amend is to attempt to restore justice and true mutuality in a relationship.

The apology is more about healing the relationship than anything else. An acknowledgment that harm was done and it wasn't just the illness.  

Is there anything from that article you want to take away with you?

TuxedoCat

[Former-Member]

And also @RublesTime This is a really powerful post from @Appleblossom a few years ago. I see a lot of similarities in your stories. Maybe there's something else in there? ❤️ 

[Joonbug]

Hi @RublesTime 

My husband has STPD and I hear you. One thing my therapist told me to use was writing, get it out. Don't have to be legible, can have squiggles through it, whatever... Just get the anger outside.